Saturday, December 13, 2008
Sal's Weakness
Despite his intellect and his self-confidence (or sticking to his gut-ness), I find it very weird that Sal can't seem to keep a girl. First there were all the women in New York, the people across the country, then Rita, then more women, then Terry, more women, and now Lucille. I don't know if he's every going to marry one of them like he says he will, but I have a feeling that this indecisiveness is going to lead to something bad (maybe a bad decision) down the road that he'll wish he never made.
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31 comments:
I have no read the chapters yet, but from pervious knowledge about the book, we know that Sal has just had a divorce. Therefore, if we assume that she broke up with him, he probably has low self- esteem about himself and his loving abilities. Since he has los self- esteem, it is probably harder to keep a girl.
Charlie, i don't know if the fact that he isn't married is going to lead to his downfall. He can be single and still be a great and sucessful writer right? And also, i don't think that the indecisiveness will lead to his downfall, but the fact that he can't stay in one placve for too long and how he over stays his welcome.
I haven't finished reading yet, but I agree that it is probably not his weakness. However, this indecisiveness about women may represent that he does not know himself well. Hence, the road trip, which is all about self-discovery and finding where he belongs.
I haven't done the reading yet either.. but I feel as if his indecisiveness is part of the allure of Sal's character. His lack of ability to settle down is symbolic of his entire life.. he can not stay in one place, and always needs to move on, indicated in his need to move from girl to girl. Yet, he has mentioned that he doesn't just want it to be about sex, proving that he really does have sentiment and one day might want to make a decision, and stay in one place. He just likes to mull things over before making crucial decisions.
Benji: I also agree with you over the fact that this indecisiveness may be because of his recent divorce. He is vulnerable and unable to think clearly about love and life in general.
I think Sal's greatest weakness is his need for love. Like Nikki mentioned, he doesn't really know who he is, thus he requires the help of others to help him live his life. This is his greatest flaw, because the more he relies on others for support, the lower chances he has of getting back up again.
Apparently, no one has done the reading yet.....
Olivia is right, Sal's quality of being indecisive makes him mroe relateable. If someone knew exactly what to do and always made the right decision, then he isn't really human (probably edward Cullen/Vampire).
Ah ha, "down the road..."
Anyway, his eagarness to spend time with girls has also cost him money and time, and sometimes for no gain either, like the sailor's girl. Maybe it's not his indecisiveness with who he marries, but just overall rash decisions he makes for the girls. It's natural for a beat person like him to make spontaneous decisions, but that will get him into more trouble than he's had, I think.
I would like to agree with Charlie 100% as to how Sal jumps from woman to woman, and it could lead to problems in his life, but going along with Benjy I agree that the fact that he's single will raise many conflicts.
It was certainly obvious that Sal didn't really love Terry because he didn't run back to get her when his aunt sent the fifty bucks, so I think it is his personal choice to end up alone. He could have at least made it to Kansas City on two tickets, and continued from there.
In my opinion, Sal is kind of a scumbag. He drinks out of every situation, can't keep a job, and just left his wife to go on a girl frenzy. I think that it is not the fact that he is looking for something in the West, but he just fancies being a bum, which I can actually agree in that sense. If he really wanted to be happy, he should have gone back to Terry and gone home to Paterson and New York, which I feel he discovered that the East is the best place in the world, because he discovers a lasting balance btwn city and country. This comes from his days with the Ghost of Susquehanna, and of course, his trials in Harrisburg.
Overall, I agree with Nikki, but i feel that Sal feels his self-discovery when he returns to his aunt.
It bugs me so much that Sal keeps leaving the girls he loves. I think he truly loves Terry and he is happy there but once again he is unable to settle down and he has to go back on the road again. Even after going back home and writting again, when Dean comes to his door he cant help but leave Lucille and return to the road again.
I think that deep down Sal wants to stay and marry someone but he is trying to find himself and he cant settle down until he does so.
"so i can rest my soul with her till we both get old. This can't go on all the time- all this franticness and jumping aruond. We've got to go someplace, find something." (117). That quote proves that he is looking for something and he wants to find it soon so he can marry someone and settle down.
HI everyone... Hope you all had a good weekend. I too have yet to finish reading... But i see Sal just as a misfit. I think that the reason he is going on this road trip is to find a place where he fits in, and i think that this is what leads to indecisiveness.I don't think he is able to see what is right and what is wrong for him. I think he is just sort of going from place to place and girl to girl looking for where he fits. I don't think that his indecisiveness regarding women will necessarily lead to his downfall. We do know that he turns out to become a successful write so i don't thin that can really be said. I think he will find his place at some point.
Hey people, now most of you say that women will lead to Sal's downfall. Thats not necessarily true, like if we look at James Bond. It ends up becoming his strength as he uses women. I think Sal is sort of similar, using women as a means of company or as a means finding work and shelter.
You could also say that Sal lusts only for the sake of lusting. Sal is always envious of his friends and well... You put the pieces together (they're pimps) I think that women will actually lead to his success since he gives him more and more to talk about. Also, it might work out where he spends more and more time with each women, showing how he is starting to settle and change...
Hmmm, i forgot my fletcher account and used my gmail account... I'll stick with it...
Hi guys. Yeah, not going to lie. I was actually pretty annoyed with Sal when he left Terry. He kind of reminded me of Odysseus. Both went on epic voyages (one in a boat and one in a car... but still) and both claim to be sorry about leaving the women they love. But then we see Odysseus who whines about not being able to get off Circe's island (wimp... build a raft... seriously) and yet is apparently still sleeping with her. Sal, similarly, acts all depressed about having to leave Terry at first, but then is seriously considering marrying Lucille shortly afterwards.
I read that and I was kind of just thinking, "...WHAT?!" It might be partly because the book skipped a year between Sal's return to New York and Dean's visit at Christmastime, but it seemed really sudden and weird. It especially surprised me because you could tell that Sal really loved Terry. He was even working hard and feeling sorry when he couldn't provide for her and her son. He even acted as kind of a father figure to Terry's kid for a while. So... he just forgot about it completely? Seems weird.
I disagree with you, Clayton. I think he was actually in love with Terry. He seemed to have found a family, and wanted to settle down. He was genuinely happy. Becca's quote was from a chapter or so later, but I think he had envied a relationship like that for a while. It IS weird that he didn't go back to get her when he got the money, though. I suppose her family issues were a factor...
I COMPLETELY agree with Cedric and Rebecca in that Sal is very much like James Bond and that he was stupid to leave Terry behind in Sabinal. I agree with the idea that Sal lusts for the sake of lusting. In a state of constant rebounding, it may seem as if Sal is just using women but really, I think he just needs the company and the love to save him from his loneliness. Going along with what Rebecca said, I definitely was annoyed when Sal left Terry. He clearly found someone who he truly loved and he had been with her for so long. On page 97, he says "It was terry who brought my soul back." At the same time, I do understand WHY he left her...
Terry has a family in Salbina and she cant just keep hitchhiking across America with Sal while she brings her son Johnny along for the ride.
And, I definitely want Sal to find a girl, maybe not like Terry, but a girl who he won't run away from. In the end, I think Sal is conflicted between two loves- his love for adventure and the road and his love for women and company.
oh and by the way- good topic choice charlie!
I just finished the reading, and I have to admit, Sal kind of annoys me. He's extremely indecisive and blows through money as if he has no cares in the world. Also, he seems to be very paranoid all the time, like the time he thought Terry was a prostitute. This may be a result of his divorce from his wife, but, still, he needs to chill.
Also, I'm disappointed that he just turned around and went back to NY. It's like he just gave up and it sort of makes the reader question if Sal ever commits to anything. I definitely agree with previous comments (i think Olivia?) that Sal's constant roaming may be symbolic of his constant need to gain new experiences.
Lastly, I definitely agree with Charlie's first post. THere is nothing good that can come from Sal's emotional instability. I think it will definitely lead to his downfall.
I also agree with charlie on the fact that sal's indecisiveness causes his inability to keep a woman. i believe this is because after his divorce, he is really looking for the perfect girl so when he eventually marries her, he wont have to deal with the hardship of divorce again. because this is in the back of his mind, he is overcompensating and no girl is good enough for him, once he gets over this, he will find the right girl. Go SAL
hey guys
charlie i like this topic the traveling part is kind of boring so thanks =) and while i can see your point that it may be his downfall that hes always on the move and cant settle, i think thats also one of the best parts of him. i just think he needs to realize it so he doesnt make promises and commitments and then break them. But i think it makes him human because im really indecisive and his whole character is symbolic of americans or at least the ones on the east coast - we're always moving and doing and we're not really patient enough to stay at one place. plus you cant really expect him to have enough faith in love to stay with a girl after his marriage failed [just my own opinion]. i like it that hes never satisfied though because i think settling for something youre not truly passionate for is more of a weakness becca - i can see why he bugs you but i like how carefree he is cause im really not which makes a nice contrast and changes my perspective a little
hey everyone! I agree with a little bit of everyones comments! I believe Sal has trouble picking women especially after his divorce and feels vulnerable to certain women. He does not know where it will lead and normally ends up going from woman to woman because he is not sure of what he wants. His low self esteem is a key factor of his journeys because as he travels he tries to seek for what he wants to do with his life which most likely ends up failing in the end.Sal thinks these trips from place to place may bring solutions to his various conflicts in life but i feel it only confuses him more.
I think that Sal's divorce is the key reason why he cannot keep a girlfriend. It is possible that he wont ever find another woman that he wants to be with. Although Kerouac doesn't mention it, there is a possibility that Sal thinks about his ex-wife when he is with Rita, and Terry, and the other women. This causes him to leave these women, because he only wants the one who left him
I don't think his inability to keep a girl is because he doesnt have self esteem or confidence, i think it is because of his divorce. Either that he is scared to make a committment or he just doesn't want one again after his divorce. I have to say that i never saw his relationship with Terry going anywhere. From knowing Sal from the previous chapters, i didnt see him settling down with some random girl he had met at a bus station. The amount of time he spent with her was probably due to the fact that he was fooling himself into thinking that he could have a real relationship with this woman..when infact it was too good to be true.
maybe I read it wrong, but I thought Sal left Terry out of necessity. I agree with Katie that it was unreasonable for Terry and her son to trek with Sal across America. And also, Sal couldn't stay with her. Terry's father and family were already angry at her for leaving her husband, therefore they couldn't know about Sal. He was living in a barn down the street. He couldn't live there forever. It was never meant to be a long term relationship, I don't think, and it was just time to move on.
What I do find interesting is that every time something starts to get hard Sal says that "everything is collapsing". I think he just doesn't like challenges and doesn't know how to change or fix things. When there is a problem instead of facing it, he escapes from it.
I agree with Olivia in thinking that it was Sal who decided to leave Terry out of necessity. He did not really lose Terry because of his inability to stay with women, more because of his need to get back east. In addition, I think that it is more that Sal gets easily distracted that leads to his major problems, and probably future problems. For example, in Fresno, he keeps saying that he will start work tomorrow ("manana"), but that day does not come for a while. The fact that he is easily distracted with many things will, in my opinion, ultimately lead to his downfall or a major problem in the future, as opposed to his inability to keep women or his indecisiveness.
I definitely agree with Benjy that Sal is secretly a hot Vampire. Because it just makes sense.
Going along with what Olivia said, I agree that he relies on others to complete him. I think that that is why he keeps on changing girls. He wants to fill that hole left by his divorce and complete himself, but he's looking for (brace yourselves, AWFUL metaphor headed your way) the most appealing plug, or brand ofcement, or... something to that hole-filling effect. He wants to find someone who, when combined with him, makes the best person, but is afraid to commit. He doesn't want to gain their flaws, only their strengths.
Going back to Sal's inability to keep a woman, i feel that it isnt so much related to his divorce but i think it is caused by his "on the road" mentality. What i mean by this is when he begins to have some trouble in his current location he might feel that in order to solve his problems he must run away from them. In doing this he also runs away from the good things he has going in that place, an example of that is Terry. Another possibility, just throwing this out there, is that he might be slightly envious of Dean's lifestyle of bouncing from woman to woman which leads him to do the things he does. By trying to be Dean, he will never have the functional relationship that he talks eventually wanting after meeting Lucille.
First of all Ryan... Cement? He doesn't want to way himself down with this plug... Second of all... when did Benjy call him a super hot vampire.. Just call him Bond, James Bond. It fits better obviously!!! Merry Christmas... And here's a miscelaneous fact
asdf is the color green or something supposedly
I agree with Sami and Lewis. Sal has a hard time with relationships since his divorce. It seems that he falls into periods of false 'love' with many girls, as demonstrated by the quote "A pain stabbed my heart, as it did every time I saw a girl I loved..." (p 81). If he truly loved somebody, he would not be able to forget them quickly and move on to somebody else. Sal constantly confuses lust for love, which is why he is often disappointed with his relationships.
I agree with Gil about Sal's need to be on the road and the allure that it seems to hold for him. I think that Sal was actually really content being in New York after all the craziness from his trip and he's probably not over his divorce yet either, but when he sees Dean again, he gets the urge. Every time Dean shows up, Sal always tries to be spontaneous like him but it never ends up the way he plans. Instead of his inability to keep a girl, i think it's his unsteady relationship with Dean that will lead to Sal's downfall.
I too commend Charlie Sigaud for the topic choice.
I agree with others about his lack of self-confidence (which may be a result of his divorce and/or a lust for the road) But while is fickleness certainly can be problematic, I feel it a most definitely a good thing – for him and whoever his partner is - that he left Terry, Lucille, and any of the other girls. For one reason or another, I dislike all of them (although I do not like Sal either), and I feel that Sal’s self-destructiveness makes any attempt at a relationship counter-productive anyway. Plus, I doubt he really loves any of them. I agree with Mr. Sheridan – a female partner is not necessary for his success anyway.
I bet that, if anything, Sal’s ultimate downfall will result from his sheer imprudence and bad decisions. He routinely throws away money and gets into bad situations. Indeed, his decision to travel west in the first place was a huge blunder. It’s evident in his decision to return to New York.
Finally, I found this interesting: “They thought I was a Mexican, of course; and in a way I am” (96). What does Sal mean? I am not sure if the connotations of “Mexican” today are the same as they were back in the 50s, but I assume from the book (“One night the Okies went mad in the roadhouse and tied a man to a tree and beat him to a pulp with sticks”) that they were looked down upon and stereotyped as laborers back then too.
Having finished the reading, I stand by what I said earlier. His indecisiveness about women is not his downfall. Instead, it symbolizes his search for himself and, as Ryan said, a women to complete him and be his other part.
To what a couple people said about Sal leaving Terry out of necessity...I agree. However, he did not have to go after another girl on the bus right after. For being so in love, he moved on very quickly.
Clark, about people thinking he was "Mexican"...I think that this could mean that he had been there so long, that he had assimilated into their culture. Also, he felt that Terry brought his soul back, so he could have been referring to his true identity as "Mexican".
Hmmm ok. so i think that Sal is just confused. He is going from girl to girl and being kind of flighty and annoying but I don't think he can help it. It seems like he just doesn't really know what he wants and he's on this big roadtrip looking for something big and exciting but he doesn't even know what that is. His record with the ladies is sort of reflecting the whole road trip because they're both really scattered. I kind of disagree with whoever said that Sal really loved Terry. I kind of think he was comfortable for a little while, but just the same as everyone else, he got bored and left. I also disagree that he's vulnerable. I think he's just afraid to find that he might be after his marriage ended, but if he really was he wouldn't be putting himself out there and taking a risky roadtrip. just my opinion though. Charlie- great topic choice. The edward cullen thing made me laugh. Hope everyone had a nice weekend.
Good evening everyone... First off i don't necessarily believe, but am still not completely discarding the vampire theory because you never know it's always a possibility. Secondly I don't think Sal's inability to keep a woman has anything to do with his divorce nor does it have anything to do with his on the road mentality... I think it is Dean. I think that Dean is Sal's life influence. It seems like Sal idolizes Dean's spontaneous life style. Dean as we know enjoys running from girl to girl and i think Sal subconsciously agrees with it... IDK something to think about.
Anyway i wanted to talk about something different because it seems like everyone is kind of stuck on his inability to stay with one girl. I want to know people's thought regarding Dean. Everyone has been going in depth about Sal's personal life but Dean i feel like is much more complicated than Sal is, with his issues with camille and Marylou. Any thoughts?
Hey Everyone!
It is about one am and it looks like most of you have blogged! Great! Plus, I have to admit that I love the range of theories out there- from international man of mystery to the undead, Sal is clearly getting a reaction out of you. I think it is important for us to talk about the whole Terry debacle tomorrow- but think not only about Terry, but about what she represents/gives him. Remember when they were walking and the team had just won a game? Think about how she exposes him to prejudice and then think about notions that he is introduced to in Mexico-- very different than an east-coast sensibility.
Also! some kudos to Mike for switching up the subject! Nicely done!
See you in less than 6 hours!
Ms. Siegel
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