Kerouac seems to be arguing that friendship is a loyalty. Its not necessarily a loyalty that makes someone follow orders blindly, but a loyalty that refuses to tarnish a friend's pride or happiness. Sal seems to be that sort of person, like when he politely refuses to sleep with Marylou, but Dean seems to be the very opposite. Dean strongly thinks about letting his friends stay in jail so that he can save 25 dollars and move on the with the roadtrip smoothly. I also just realized that Dean and Sal are foils!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Anyways, so what do you think that Kerouac is trying to convey about this friendship?
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Cedric, great call on the foils! I think Kerouac is trying to say that friends are a necessary part of life. Without friends, Sal would not be able to make his trip, all the people he meets and the experiences he has are a result of friends, he is influenced by his friends, and influences his friends. Without people like Dean and Remi there is no story to be told so i believe that Kerouac is trying to say that friendship is a necessity and in order to live life to the fullest, you need them.
jw but laminator=flecher=cedric?
And i do agree about the character foils between Dean and Sal.
Friendship is the needed quality in order for a person to create meaning within their life. For example, the only reason that Sal keeps traveling the country is because of friendship. The first time is to work on the boat and meat Dean in Denver. The second time is to originally see Old Bull. Everytime Sal goes somewhere, it is to reunite with friends or family and sometimes along the way, he gets side tracked.
I agree with both of you, but I feel that Sal's friendships are based off of a need more than a want. Sal, although driven, is somewhat lazy, and needs his friends to get things done, like all of the driving. He also needs their emotional support, and it is evident that they need his. Although he wants what he is getting, i don't think he'd be ass good friends with Dean and Ed if he didn't need them.
Cedric-I strongly agree with your point about their loyalty being the reason Sal declined to sleep with Marylou. Although he said it wouldn't feel right until San Francisco (and Dean would be there), i don't think he could have sex with his best friend's girlfriend and live with it on his conscience.
Cedric, this is a terrific question, you should write the SATs...Going along with Justin, I believe that Jack Kerouac is spreading a message in that friends provide a moral and characteristic trait that you would not find if you were always alone. We see that Sal is totally dependent on his friends, for better or worse, and his trips are usually in response to a letter or persuasion by another friend.
I feel that Kerouac is comparing friendship to love, because so much of the fun and frolic in this novel, as we discussed in class, is like a marriage. And in my opinion, love and friendship combined is a truly American idea, because so many American writers write in this way.
While reading, an interesting thought came up...On page 130, Ed Dunkel (interesting guy), says "The days of wrath are yet to come. The balloon won't sustain you much longer. And not only that, but it's an abstract balloon. You'll all go flying to the West Coast and come staggering back in search of you stone." I feel that this quote is critical because it represents the true "bollocks" in Manifest Destiny. From what I could tell, Sal had the most fun in New York and New Jersey, and everyone he has met in the West, expressed great interest in him primarily because of the fact he was a New Yorker, and they wanted to go there. I think that all Easterners dream of the West until they actually get there, and they realize it is does not fit the bill of their imagination, so they only come back. Any thoughts?
Good question Cedric. I agree with Justin that Sal needs his friends. Throughout the book, Sal is always with his friends, and meeting new friends. One of the most important things in the book is Sal's friendship with Dean, and without it, there wouldn't really be a plot. Also, I don't think that Dean and Sal are foils, because Sal tries to be like Dean sometimes.
Clayton i agree with you connecting to certain stereotypical parts of the West. Some people believe that when they arrive in the West it may not live up to the glamorous expectations. It can go the same way with people going from L.A to New York. I believe it is what most are comfortable with that make them decide on what they like best. Trying to conform to a different lifestyle is difficult for most no matter how high the ranking of the place may be. New York City may set a high standard for some but others may feel that the city is not always suitable to their liking. Some people may feel that they don't know their own comfort zone until they step outside the box. To relate to Sal, he believed this adventure would help solve issues in his life when it ended up bringing him right back where he started.
hi people.. i agree that kerouac has made companionship a theme from the beginning - whether its a guy friend, ie Dean, or a lover, ie Terry, Sal is not a very independent person. I guess since he lost his wife and his family doesnt seem to be priority in his life considering hes left his aunt, hes dependent on the friends he makes along the way. but sal isnt very dependable which kind of makes him a bad friend - at least if i met him i would probably keep some distance cause hes always leaving and not really reliable at all. at the same time though deans not available as a friend either - which would make them similar and not foils although i do think they contrast in most other categories.
yes i think kerouac thinks friendship is loyalty, like when Sal sleeps with marylou, but i also think he sees friendship as trust. Im not sure but i think this is shown when Sal talks about how he is too afriad to drive and if he has to he drives realyl slowly. Then on page 124, he says that "I was never scared when Dean drove; he could handle a car under any circumstances." this shows that he trusts Dean more than he trusts himself.
Hey guys, great question Cedric, I completely agree that Dean's and Sal's characters definitely have some aspects that are foils. However, I have to agree with Charlie's comment about Sal's complete reliance on his friends. It's not really a balanced relationship; it seems like Dean is the leader and everyone just follows what he does. For example, when Carlo Marx and Sal were interpreting his dream about the Arabian desert, Sal immediately believe Dean's interpretation of it rather than his own. Also, Sal feels safe with Dean. It's almost as if it's not a real friendship, but a reliance on one another, with Sal relying more heavily on Dean. However, Dean must feel some attachment to Sal as well, because he always seems to come back for him.
Hi! I agree with Charlie, about why Sal makes friendships. I think that Sal desperately needs to feel wanted and included all of the time, and that he sometimes (subconsciously?) sees friendship as how much he can gain from the other person, and not as a symbiotic relationship.
Thanks for the comment Clayton, but ill pass unless there's money involved (Oh, you were Dean pwned!!!!). Yeah, I guess it sorta is true that its more a dependency, and yes, I am all three people. I keep to the trinity?
Anyways...What you guys are saying sorta makes sense, but why do we always target Sal? Sure we can figure out the character, but wouldn't it be better if we also related back to Dean, then compared the two together? When you link the two together, there's Sal, who sorta is dependent on the friendship/companionship and it grows stronger with each moment, but for Dean, isn't there also some transformation? It feels like Dean is sort of losing that bond and is sort of just living for himself ever since he got that new railroad job. He sort of waves around his cash and solves things with that (I.E. He tells Marylou that he'll still have the affair while being married, supplying for the two or something like that) Doesn't that mean that Dean and Sal sort of have this inverse relationship? As Sal makes some progress and evolves, Dean seems to devolve and instead become more distant and more spoiled/money/entertain me/ based. Does this mean something or is this just a coincidence...
I think the point that Kerouac is trying to make is that friendship motivates Sal to move on with his life. The reason he decides to take his first road trip is not really because he wants to see the west, but because he wants to be with his friends. Sal is a comfort creature who dreads being alone, as displayed in not only his dependance upon his friends, but also in his ever-changing ways with women, as discussed in an earlier blog. I do not happen to think that Kerouac is suggesting that loyalty is the foundation of friendship though, because Sal was very willing to have an affair with Mary Lou, he just says his heart was not there. Thus, it is the sentimental side of Sal, not the loyal side, that stops him from having an affair with her. In fact, I think Sal and Dean have no loyalty to each other. As displayed in Denver, Dean could care less if he remained a good friend to Sal. It is only when they need each other do they act as good friends, an interesting distinction in each of Sal's relationships.
In response to Clayton's question, I think it is the cliché scenario of "the grass is greener on the other side". Sal always thinks that wherever he is going will be better than where he already is. He obviously doesn't feel the same after he arrives, as proven in his stay in L.A.
In response to Cedric's last blog, I think that this entire theme of interdependence is displayed in your first question. The characters do lean on each other in friendship and as soon as one uses another, the former character becomes lenient and lazy. For example, Sal relied on Remi for a job, a home, and food. As soon as Remi needed Sal, the latter could not give back what he had taken.
The only contradiction to this interdependence seems to be with Sal and his aunt. He always borrows money from her, but seems to pay her back and help her out. It's interesting to see how different familial relationships are from friendships.
To be honest, i think Kerouac sees friendship as just having fun together..and according to that time period, fun was getting drunk and high together all the time. I wouldn't say that Sal really exemplifies a friend nor does Dean. I think they are counter examples--how not to be a friend. I agree with Clayton and Justin that without his friends he may not have as good a time as he does on his trips. He seems happier while partying with his friends than having talks with random strangers he met on his hitchhiking adventures.
I think that Sal uses his friends to power his life. Without the friends that he has throughout the book, then Sal would be completely lost, and most likely too lonely to do anything worth writing about. Therefore, the friends are a necessary part of Sal's life, and without them he would be a nonentity. Kerouac utilizes the idea of friendship as a way to help power the road trip. Without the friends, there is a possibility that Sal could have stayed and lived with his aunt his entire life (not saying that is a bad thing). I concur with Justin's ideas about how there would be no story without the friends. Friendship is a useful tool to use, especially when the story relies on them.
Hi guys. Good question... Laminator? (OK. First of all... Cedric? Gotta stop with the name changes. Seriously) Anyway, yes I do see how Dean and Sal could be foils. We already know that one is sentimental (Sal) and the other (Dean) is not, so that is another comparison that can be made.
I do believe friends are important to Sal. We see this idea of kinship pointed out in the "We're all in this together" quote from last night's reading. Just the way we see him follow Dean everywhere in spite of everything that was happening in his own life shows his complete loyalty. However, I don't even know if you could call it a "friendship" in the general meaning of the term. Sal just has this desire to be on the road, and he is therefore drawn towards those that have the same desire. In that way, it is partly a friendship of convenience; an excuse to be on the road once more.
It is interesting that even though he seems to care for people he meets (even the hobos and the random people he hitchhikes with), he accepts that he must leave them, sometimes without even a real goodbye. Somehow, no matter how attached he is to someone, this is always alright with him. Being on the road is more important. If at first the "friend" helps him get on his way, then he feels this "loyalty" towards them. However, he has no qualms about parting ways when coming to a fork in the road.
In both parts one and two, Sal always seems to start off his road trip getting to the same destination as Dean. First it was Denver, then New Orleans, only this time they're in the same car. Also, Sal is heading west in search of the true meaning of his life, and his close friendships with so many diverse people, and his deep conversations with them, will definitely aid in his quest to find himself. Though, his friends do get him in a lot of trouble. Perhaps friendship has its benefits and its detriments. For example, Ed Dunkel driving really fast and costing them 25 out of their 40 dollars. Money just comes and goes for these guys. I can see the loyalty aspects in the story. Sal definitely believes in sticking together with Dean, I think, though Dean doesn't seem to be as loyal. I also note that at the beginning of Chapter 5, Carlo asks some pretty legitimate questions such as, "Dean, why did you leave Camille and pick up Marylou?" and "Ed Dunkel, why did you abandon yur wife in Tucson and what are you doing here...? Where's your home? What's your job?" I'm not sure if he asks this out of care because he is their friend, or he is annoyed that they are staying at his place. The first reason would show some of his loyalty. Friendship can represent a lot of things, loyalty and guidance, help when you need it.
Laminator sounds like a guy who laminates paper for a living. :)
Hey guys! I agree with Rebecca about Sal valuing trust in his friendships, but I also think that empathy is another important aspect of them, especially the one he has with Dean. Although the friendship is very rocky, Dean and Sal think in a similar way and can truly relate to one another. For example, Dean is in love with both Marylou and Camille at the same time and wants to have a life with both girls, while Sal also wants to have a life with a woman, but he likes too many. Even though the situations are a little different, Sal and Dean still connect that way and i think the reason they have so many problems settling down is that they both want to live life to the fullest and they haven't really discovered themselves.
These road trips could be good for Sal if he were to separate from the group and travel on his own like he did in the first part of the book. Maybe if he is on his own without the influence of people like Dean and Old Bull, Sal can finally get the closure he needs to start a happy life.
Okay first off, i like the question laminator.
and second, i really liked what you said, Clayton- about Kerouac's comparison of friendship and love. Going along with that notion, I definitely agree with the fun/frolic attitude of the story so far- from part 1 to where we're at in part 2- as it's like a marriage.
Like your opinion, Clayton, I completely agree with your statement about the significance of love and friendship and the relationship between them in pertaining to the american idea that we have come to understand.
Also, remembering Charlie's post from the weekend--Sal has just been going from girl to girl. He left Terry in Salbina, which in my opinion, was a big mistake. Now with this idea of friendship and companionship as a major theme of the novel, Sal has A LOT of connections, as we've talked about in class. It seems that wherever he goes, he ALWAYS knows someone or finds someone to say with and help him out. So, as Sal goes from girl to girl, he also goes from friend to friend, and unfortunately, not all of these friendships last. In the end, Dean and Carlo seem to always be there with Sal, on and off the road.
and for the record- I don't know why my name is Beim4z all of a sudden
I basically agree with the thoughts on the theme of interdependence throughout the novel and the descriptions on how Kerouac portrays friendship. To add another point, in class today we talked about how loneliness is a major part of Sal's character. It relates to his multiple lovers and can be applied to friendship. Especially after his divorce, Sal is feeling lonely and needs his friends even more for support.
Also, I agree that Sal and Dean are character foils. However, I'm not sure that Dean has a bigger part in the relationship. Just because his personality is larger and louder does not mean it is more important. Instead, I see the two diverse personalities as two parts to a whole. They complete each other. Furthermore, this explains the attachment that Sal feels to Dean from the beginning of the book.
Good evening everyone... I'm going to go way back to about 4:30 with what Sami and Clayton said. I think that for Sal, Dean's lifestyle is very representative of America. I think Sal Idolizes Dean as a friend, person, role model and i think that he sees Western America as this great place with the ability to be free and do whatever you want. It seems as though Sal is let down by both Western America and Dean's lifestyle. He goes out West and basically decides its no different and comes home. He tries out Dean's free spirited, just roll with it lifestyle and also realizes it's just not for him.
I would like to go back to what Lewis said about Dean and Sal not being foils. I also thought this way until tonights reading where there is a scene where Sal passes up the chance to sleep with Marylou. As Charlie said, Sal is acting out of loyalty but i think that had Sal and Dean been in reverse positions Dean would not have passed up this chance and he would have slept with Marylou. In doing this he would be betraying Sal.
I absolutely agree that Sal and Dean are foils because of the differences in the strengths of loyalty each presents in their friendship. Sal is very loyal to Dean while Dean is not very loyal to Sal. As i said before i definetely think that Dean would abandon the "bros before hoes" mentality that Sal shows in turning down Marylou.
I actually think partially the OPPOSITE of Ced... the Laminator's ideas.
I agree that he considers Friendship to be loyalty, but i think that he DOES define it as the blind loyalty that is evident in Ed.
This is why he chooses to follow Dean Since the story's beginning. Dean gets him into trouble. Yet he always insists that Dean is worth following, and considers him a friend.
What is blind loyalty to a useless friend like Dean if not sal's immediate joining with him after a year of separation?
Remi is what most would consider a true friend, and kerouac leaves him.
Well i find the whole inverse relationship to be really interesting because i think it makes a lot of sense but i'm not 100% sure Sal and Dean are foils. They both very similarly are not very dependent. You see this from the beginning when Dean is playing two different girls and they are both traveling the country... neither of them are really constants. Sal doesn't always seem to demonstrate loyalty either. Although he stays away from Marylou, he still sort of lets Remi down eventually. His friendships are fleeting like most things in his life. Sal does not necessarily seen extremely invested in most of his friendships because he always leaves. This seems to make it clear that he does not care very much. I don't think he is totally capable of having long lasting meaningful friendships until he settles down and figures out what he wants from his life.
I sort of agree with many you – Kerouac does seem to suggest that loyalty is inherent to friendship, , Sal's friends have proven to be the catalysts of the story. I think that his dependence on his friends plays a lot in to the fact that rather being projecting his own individual personality, he masks it with this audacious, suave persona.
Ryan, how is Remi a true friend? He seems like a scumbag to me.
And a few of you are suggesting that Sal is a good friend for refusing to sleep with Mary Lou. But I don’t see how sleeping with Mary Lou would have violated the friendship between Dean and Sal – Dean asked Sal to sleep with her (and Mary Lou was very willing herself). In fact, one could argue that the opposite is true. By turning down his request, Sal places himself above what Dean asks (although this is not necessarily a bad thing).
Clayton, the whole East vs. West thing is probably just a matter of personal preference. Many people are also probably just uncomfortable with change.
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