Hi guys
after reading Old Woman Magoun i had a few questions
my biggest confusion is in why nelson barry / jim wants lily
the grandmother guesses that he lost a card game andthats why he wants her
and then once nelson goes home to jim, he says "you better keep your promise"
clearly somethings going on that we dont know about - what does jim want with lily? to marry her? -- and is that the only reason woman magoun wants to keep lily away from her father? so that he doesnt marry her off because thats what happened to lily's mother and then she died? or does she just think hes a bad man
also... does she kill lily? because if she just wants to keep her away from nelson cause shes scared that she will die after being married off... how is killing her any different? either way she dies, and she could have potentially had a life different than her mother's.
do you think that old woman magoun killed her daughter too? because nelson says something like his wife had gotten sick from sour apples and milk before and it was really bad... so maybe thats just what magoun says to cover up that she killed both of them - cause with lily at least i think its the berries that do it.
last... what do you think the doll represents? at first i thought it was lily's innocense but then the grandmother holds it so maybe for lily its like her dead mother and for magoun its lily?
oh and... what do the blackberry vines represent? just death?
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6 comments:
i think nelson lost in cards and had some type of deal with jim about lily. Jim wanted lily (for what, i don't know). Then, maybe nelson's debt will be forgotten. AND The grandmother does kill lily (something to do with the DEADLY black berries....)
Nelson Barry / Jim want Lily for odd reasons. Jim finds Lily to be that sorta pure innocence. That beautiful untouched person that looks like an angel and has those angelic ideas. Nelson Barry I think wants to be a part of Willises fortune I think, so Nelson wants them to marry. So basically, Nelson wants cash and Jim is lustful (I think). Magoun is afraid of damaging the innocent beauty that she sees.
A lot of myths have a similar story where there's that innocent beauty that everyone desires, but as they come closer to reaching it, it dies. There's that bird from the book we read Freshman year, The Bean Trees? The bird is this beautiful creature that people desire, that's free, but as you capture it, it dies. There's also the myth with some Greek God and the beautiful huntress which causes the huntress to commit suicide/turn into a tree to get away from the God.
I think that thats what Wilkins is trying to get across. Maboun seems to have killed her mother to free her from the curses of having to be a slave to Nelson Barry and this sort of marriage without love. The mom was probably the same as Lily, but she ended up marrying and being miserable, so Maboun spares her with death. I think Maboun kills Lily before Lily has to experience the same thing.
The doll i think represents Innocence and happiness. When the handsome man/Jim starts to move closer to Lily, Lily grasps the doll tightly and runs, so I think that the doll represents freedom. When Lily dies, she puts the doll next to her and dies with it in her arms as she goes to heaven (or so i hope), which better strengthens that. Lastly, Maboun is seen walking with the doll in the end, so could the doll also represent burden? Do you think that Wilkins is trying to say that happiness is a thing that will always be just out of our grasps, like humans being Gods will be?
I think that the doll has a darker meaning. When Lily dies that basically symbolizes the death of Innocence and happiness and freedom. Then the doll would also have lost its meaning as well.
for the first question, i think jim willis won marriage rights to lily in a card game. they said nelson was a drinker, and we see that here.
as to whether or not she killed lily, i think yes. for one, old woman magoun (and everyone else but lily) knew that sour apples and milk don't go well together. i'm also basing my opinion on the length of OWM's conversation with the lawyer and his wife, and the fact that the lawyer's wife was crying when OWM and lily were walking away, before she knew what was gonna happen; i talked to clayton about this, and we were both leaning towards poison.
benjy- i agree that the deadly blackberry thing foreshadowed death as well.
i think the doll does represent happiness and innocense; everyone is always asking lily why she still plays with the doll. cedric brings up a good point, though, that the doll loses its meaning when lily dies.
yeah cedric i kind of agree that the doll loses its meaning when lily dies if it represents innocense, but for maGoun, the doll could just represent something different - probably lily.
charlie... you said "i think yes. for one, old woman magoun (and everyone else but lily) knew that sour apples and milk don't go well together." so why does that make you think magoun was trying to kill her? i thought the lawyers wife gave her that. and i dont think the milk and apple is what killed her - i thought it was the berries
and also charlie i think she was crying more because she wanted to have a daughter and couldnt.
Now that you think about it, it might be the berries that caused Lily's death... First time Lily sees it, she wants to eat it, but Magoun quickly says no. They then have the meeting and i guess the lawyer says no, so Magoun lets Lily eat the berries. Is the berry poisonous alone though or does it mix with the sour apples and milk to make poison...
to cedric:
The berries are poisonous alone. As you said, Old Woman Magoun lets Lily eat the berries. The sour apples and milk is just a cover up, yeah it will give you a bad stomach, but it would not kill you. I think that OWM had the opportunity to save Lily, but she let her eat the berries because she did not want Lily to have to go through marriage that should not have to happen anyway. I just think it is utterly disgusting that Nelson Barry would bet his own daughter's marriage rights on a card game, but even after he barely pays attention to her anyway.
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