How true do you find this to be? I think that it is pretty accurate; Yates usually talks about Frank's manhood in the highest regard when he's yelling at April, hitting her, or doing something primitive/raw.
Monday, January 19, 2009
Frank vs. John
In the scene in chapter 5, Part 3 (p. 302) in which John is questioning the Wheelers' decision to stay in America, he says to April, "I'm beginning to feel sorry for him, too. I mean come to think of it, you must give him a pretty bad time, if making babies is the only way he can prove he's got a pair of balls."
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22 comments:
I think it's totally true. John can sort of see that April runs the house on Revolutionary Road, and Frank is kind of a pawn. Even if Frank believes his manhood is unquestionable, his childish actions actually resemble defeat. John isn't crazy, he's simply a realist.
I agree with both Clayton and Charlie in saying that it is definitely true. To expand on what Clayton was saying about how April runs the house, this is definitely true and we see this by how Frank goes to work everyday, but at work he does not really do anything of great importance. Whenever he comes home or someone else visits, the characters mention how the house is clean and spotless. This is because April is running the house, and it would have been true even more if the Wheelers had gone to France. April would have gotten a job, and really been the only one supporting the family because Frank would have been "finding himself." If they had gone to France, then this would have been true even more, but now its just Frank that is bringing in the money, but April is the one that runs the place.
I believe the majority of the things that come out of john's mouth are true which is why he is in an instituiton. John can see throguh the facade of the 50s and is willing to talk abotu how fake it is. I think that statement is true because Frank did not even want the child, he jsut wanted to prove that he could have on if he wanted to and to prove April wrong.
I definitely agree, in that John is extremely truthful. His observations of the Wheelers, his parents, and the world around him are spot on. I really liked what Benji said- how everything John says is true and that is what puts him in a mental institution. He sees everything for what it is, especially the fake, cookie-cutter world he is living in. That is why when he says "if making babies is the only way he can prove he's got a pair of balls," he calls Frank and April out on their "bluff"- he sees through the facade they put on in Revolutionary Road. He realizes that they are not the real, genuine human beings he pictured them to be.
I think John in some way is the voice of reason, and thus he is put away, to be quieted. I definitely think this statement is apt, because, as Frank admits, he struggles with masculinity, and the only thing he has control over in their relationship is April's pregnancies. Although this might seem odd, considering the woman bears the child, Frank realizes that he can control whether or not April will perform an abortion, and he loves this power. For example, after the time is over that she can perform an abortion, Frank becomes increasingly happy and notes how beautiful the day is many times.
I think this is definitely true. That is one of the main problems in Frank and Aprils marriage. April sort of has the upperhand and that bothers Frank and makes him feel like his masculinity is being taken away. On page 292, Frank talks about how April's talk about abortion really threatens his masculinity and perhaps that is why he has an affair with Maureen Grube because he feels more like the "man in the relationship" with maureen.
Yeah, I think Frank definitely feels threatened by April, and he thinks she challenges his masculinity when considering getting an abortion. I think that all of the passages with John are the most straight-forward and true, because he seems to be the only character who actually says what is on his mind. Also, I think John is totally accurate in his views of the Wheelers because he sees that the only way Frank is in control of his family is by getting April pregnant. Maybe this was the only way he could keep April from moving the family to Europe?
I basically agree with what everyone is saying. John does see through the conformity of the 1950s. I think what causes his installment in a mental institution is his ability to see the truth and say it. While everyone else thinks about what they are going to say before they say it, John doesn't care what others think of him and says the first thing that comes to mind. In a way, this correlates to Kerouac, who believes that the first thought is the best thought.
I agree that Frank has problems with confidence in his manhood. And, seen in his affair with Maureen Grube, sex is a way for him to prove his masculinity.
Another thing that I found interesting...John says that money is a good reason not to go to Europe, but asks what the real reason is. Do you agree with him that money is not the real reason? I feel that masculinity could be a determining factor for Frank in his decision on whether or not to go to France.
I agree that the masculinity issue is one thing holding Frank back from the Europe trip, as April would then be doing all the work and such. I still think money has something to do with it though, as Frank suddenly gets this promotion with a bigger paycheck, and it would be sorta missing out just to throw that opportunity away.
I think there is truth in what John said as well. Frank sure has conducted many attempts at showing his "masculinity," such as the affair, but then again that doesn't really prove anything. In my opinion a good man should be honest to his wife. Frank keeps working on the stone path. But a whole summer has passed and he doesn't seem to have finished much at all. It shows a lack of follow-through, which to a small extent is similar to the cancelling of the Europe trip. I also agree with John about how April is such a hard person to deal with. Every time they have a fight she is stubborn, unresponsive, and sort of irritating from the way I look at it. And most of the time I don't think Frank takes much charge, in that she is unafraid of the consequences in defying him. Though John may be pretty rude, his words hit on the mark almost every time.
i also believe that it is very true. The fact that april tries to control everything is extremely immasculating to frank so i believe "knocking up" april was a way for frank to gain control over his life
I hope that everyone has had a lovely three day weekend.
Yeah, there is definitely truth to what he says. As we discussed a lot in class, Frank’s inadequacy and lack of masculinity – especially in comparison with his most virile father – is a pretty big theme. We saw this pretty clearly with April’s first pregnancy too: ‘And it seemed to him now that no single moment of his life had ever contained a better proof of manhood than that, if any proof were needed: holding that tamed, submissive girl and saying, “Oh, my lovely; oh, my lovely,” while she promised she would bear his child.”
John seems to be the most genuine character here. But, as others have said, John’s rationality unfortunately makes him seem irrational in an irrational world.
Nikki, I think that both money and Frank's masculinity are chief amongst Frank's reasons for remaining in the United States. I also think that he realizes that he never really wanted to go to France in the first place, and the reasons that he convinced himself of were poor. While April persuaded him to go to Europe to find himself, Frank more and more began finding an identity at home with his job (this was foreshadowed when part 2 when Jack asks Frank "...assuming there is a true vocation lurking in wait for you, don't you think you'd be just as apt to discover it here as there?)?
Although I agree that April is more in control of Frank,I don't think its April's fault that his masculinity level is so low. John says "you must give him a pretty bad time" - but I really dont think she should be blamed - its Franks fault if anyones.
Also... Benjy youre totally right. He is put in an institution because he is surrounded by fake people and hes true to himself and doesnt try to be anyone else. However, i think that this makes him go slightly mad. Its hard to be alone because everyone around you is pretending to be something. Nobody fully lets others in. Holding his parents hostage... doesnt make him entirely normal, but he is definitely the voice of reason.
This isnt totally related and its kind of late so i dont know if anyone will read this but its all kind of freaking me out. Just like in 1984, April says its all just words and like nothing means anything - mostly because we diminish them. And thats true - when we use a word too much [ie "classic" - olivia] it completely loses its value. This whole book has been like a psychoanalysis and its depressing. Almost everyones fake and if youre real youre considered crazy. Theres no hope for happiness. Suburbia is hell. Having kids is considered punishment. People instinctively have a need to connect with other people and thats why he talk but Frank even says "whats the point of talking if words mean nothing?". Is anyone else affected by this?? Usually I just read through it but its really getting to me the deeper we get into the novel. I don't know how to phrase this properly but its just making me question like what the reason is for anything and everything. Science is slowly making an atheist society and if all there is is the time we're on earth what are we supposed to do with it other than be lonely? I sound insane but this book is seriously depressing me. As interesting as it is and i enjoy reading it... I really cant wait to be done.
This is definitely true. John is stating the truth of the relation of women and men in the 1950's. Frank is frustrated with April for being in charge and in control constantly but does not know how to regain power of the household. He is a troubled man filled with confusion and his frustration is taken out on April for being the "man" of the family which upsets him.
I guess I'll agree... :) If you notice, Franky is also the guy who's confessing his affair and its April who's just shrugging it off. In the stereotypical family that Franky attempts to achieve, it's April who's supposed to be all emotional while April is the girl who's all hyperbolic, crying out for forgiveness and all. Also, when April had a fling with Wats his name Army dude, its the Army man who's all like. I LOVE YOU DAMN IT, DON'T LEAVE ME!!! While April is like, I don't know who I am, I can't live a life like this!!! (Lols) That sorta also shows April as being of the masculine side while Franky is the more feminine type.
I think this is true, but only from Frank's point of view. I don't think this is April's objective. I think that she only means to be a more independent and productive person. This is the cause however for Frank's feeling less masculine. Frank just can't really handle her. John has is exactly right, as it seems he usually does.
Really good question. I agree with what people have been saying about John. I think he's the only really genuine person in this society, and so he's the only one that isn't wearing this "mask." April says on pg 203 that he seemed so much more sane when they got him away from his mother (Mrs. Givings). I think this is really significant, because Mrs. Givings seems to be like the perfect 50's housewife, and so really represents society at the time. I think her entire purpose in this story is to show this contrast with John, and how society would rather put John in a cage to silence him rather than hear the truth and have their "perfect" lives collapse around them.
Also, I think it is important to realize that April is as much included in John's criticism as Frank is. He is at first talking about Frank's manliness, but he is disappointed with both of the Wheelers, and seems to be taking back his earlier comment about how April is not just "feminine" but "female" and how Frank is not just "masculine" but "male." However vague this was, it seemed to be exactly what April and Frank wanted to hear at the time. And then there is the weird conversation they have as part of the debate during the time window for the abortion. He's talking about April needing a psychoanalyst and her wanting to take on more of the role of a man. It's kind of true, actually, or at least within the 50's context. Women were generally housewives then, but here April is wanting to work while her husband stays at home and develops an "identity" for himself. It's an interesting role reversal.
Well I agree that John is not crazy and the only reason he is in an institution is because he is different and does not conform to society but I do not agree that frank thinks he is a man because he is having a child I think the reason he made her have the child is because he did not want to go to Paris and wanted to continue his job in order to prove to his father that he is adequate by accepting the promotion.
I find John to be the most down-to-Earth insane man i've ever heard of.
I find that he speaks the truth in this from an outside perspective. April is obviously in control. However, i also believe that Frank truly thinks that he is manly, and the trip to France would, in his opinion, make her the leader instead of strengthening the position.
On a side note, John is Awesome.
I think that Frank's outraged reaction to this quote demonstrates his insecurity about his manhood and the way that others perceive him. April also knows about his insecurity that he feels and she uses that against him in order to get what she wants. We saw this back before their move to Europe was cancelled when she kept telling him that he was a real man or something like that. Good question charlie and sorry about the eagles.
I would say its pretty accurate... I think that John makes a valid point, although it is a bit harsh, i think he is right in saying it. In my opinion, I think that Frank felt that by going to Paris and letting April make the money his masculinity was being downsized, and by impregnating April he knew that they would be unable to go to Paris and therefor things would stay the same and Frank would remain head of the household. So to answer the questions Yes i do think that John is correct in stating that this was Frank's way of stating that he does in fact " Have a pair of Balls"
Elizabeth, since i just read your comment, i too want to admit something... The book sort of makes me think about the purpose of life (but not to that extent). I think that what Yates is arguing is that people are too afraid to express themselves though, so they feel this empty shell of loneliness. Like sure, it might seem like he says that its inevitable, but he also shows only one side of things. It's like what Joseph Pearce says... “To live a creative life we must lose our fear of being wrong.” No one in the book is not afraid of being wrong. Frank is afraid of being not masculine, cause he feels like its wrong not to be. April is afraid of just about everything... She's afraid of knowing herself and she's afraid of becoming happy, so she feels this sense of fear.
I think that what Yates fails to talk about is those people who aren't afraid. The people who aren't afraid to do what they want or be wrong
hahah thanks cedric - yeah i agree its a single perspective novel which erica was also saying today. thats a really comforting way to think of it but i maintain that this novel is a little too heavy. without being prepared for it, it completely overwhelms the reader [or at least me] with ideas of loneliness and "inevitable", hopeless eptiness.
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