In the sense of money and material objects, I think yes, Lily's social status has changed. She has been able to buy gowns and jewelry and pay off her bills. However, people continue to gossip about her and she has not found a husband. Therefore, she has not changed her long-term social status. Soon enough, the money will dissipate and she will be back where she started.
I think she is actually being moved more towards the center of the circle, because of the recent gossip. She is becoming a center of attention in this world, and thus becoming more important. I think when people start to forget about you, you start to move out of the circle and into the "republic". Also, her new found money is allowing her to take part in the society and not just be a spectator on their world.
I think that being the center of scandal and gossip has definitely been beneficial for Lily's social status. She is getting more and more attention fro Gus Trenor and George Dorset as well as many other male admirers, which will only increase her likelihood of getting married. However, I think that the engagement of Gryce and Evie Van Osburgh was definitely an unexpected twist. I was really shocked that so soon into the start of the novel the possibility of a marriage between Lily & Percy was already eliminated? I wonder if Lily will do anything to jeopardize the engagement?
ooo becca i like that idea. itd make the plotline a little more interesting i think. yeah i agree that being given all this attention is contributing to pushing her into the center of the cirlce for the society to revolve around. also, of course, the increase in money [thanks to mr trenor] is enabling her to afford the lifestyle that her name perscribes. at the same time though i still have hope for lily and seldon. its an unlikely couple for their society but like lily said why should percy marry evie if they both have money... meaning she thinks people should share the wealth. actually i think she just said that cause she was jealous, but still as long as she doesnt stupidly lose her money, she could bring seldon into her world and just have enough money to provide for them both. this is kind of unrealistic but im hoping it happens because lily even admits shes different with seldon and hes the only one who doesnt bore her.
Nice question CHUCK. Lily is still part of the same social circle but she has moved closer to the tetherball side (from our diagram). The reason for the side switch is because she is now making her money in wall street and business like Rosedale and the new wealth does. The reason she is still in her original social circle with Trenor and the Dorsets is because she still acts as if she is a member of that society. For example, She still sort of resents Rosedale and she still goes to houses like Bellomont.
I believe that Lily's social position has changed, to a point where she is almost out of the circle. True that she had gotten Gus to give her money to pay off gambling debts and other things, but in the last or second to last chapter Gus shows how suspicious he is of her, which is quite a lot, at the opera house. I think she is being pushed into a situation where she is losing control of where her money comes from and how to spend that money. Also, at the end of the last chapter, Miss Stepney reveals a lot of what happened to Mrs. Peniston, and Miss Stepney is bound to keep spreading the information. Also, Lily had made a few enemie, such as Stepney, as well as Mrs. Dorset, so her stability in the social circle is now very questionable.
I think that though her economic situation has improved, her position in the social circle has not. The people in the circle seem to distrust her (Berthe Dorset) or get in her way (the Van Osburghs... just how many of them are there? They marry everyone.).
So, now she's got a couple of guys chasing her. One she dislikes. Another one is married. The best isn'tloaded enough. I believe that her getting married is essential to her social status.
I feel that from the point of view of another character in the social circle, Lily's status has changed and he has grown closer to the center of the circle. But in Lily's point of view, she has not really changed that much. This has nothing to do with the post, but it annoys me that Lily cannot truly see the difference between true happiness and the false happiness that comes from wealth, which, in this society, acts as a poor substitute for true happiness.
Good question, and I would say that depends what you mean by social status because in the eyes of her peers she is still lower-upper class however she has recently come into some money that allows her to pay off some debts and buy some things for herself. The people around her still view her as the same though, because she does take in a significant amount that would allow them to believe otherwise.
i do not believe lily's social status has changed because even though she is able to purchase more, she is still sort of viewed as an outsider. the fact that she is not married and does not appear to have a decent shot with gryce only furthers her social exclusion. unless she starts making multi millions from her investments, her social status will remain the same.
I would have to agree with Nikki. I think that because Lily has been gaining money, she has been getting closer to the circle of society in the short term. However, due to the fact that money and income can come and go so easily, I do not think this will stabilize her future place in society. Once she solidifies her place in society, possibly through marriage, we will be able to tell where Lily truly stands in society.
I agree with Justin, and I think that unless Lily marries someone wealthy, she will be viewed as an outsider. This is because right now she is self-reliant, unlike any of the other women, and in order to join the inside of the circle, she will have to combine her own wealth with that of someone like Percy.
I think that even though Lily is beginning to make money her social status among women is changing because of how she is getting the money. Lilys investments through Trenor are made possible by her allowing herself to become indebted to him with her company. I think that the other women are jealous of her because of how she is able to use her looks to get their husbands, and other men, to do what she wants. Among men her status is remaining relatively the same however among women, which matters more, I think that her status is diminishing.
I think that Lily is definitely closer to the center of the social circle, but not in a positive way. All this gossip about her will not end well and as Nikki pointed out, Lily still needs a husband. Lily's position in the circle will not last and unless she finds a husband soon and stops the rumors from spreading, things will definitely take a turn for the worse.
With the money she is receiving from Trenor, Lily has moved closer into the circle (or at the very least, stopped herself from moving further out). If she had stopped having a maid or playing bridge, for example, her status would certainly diminished even more. I don't think that Gus Trenor will be able to depended on, so unless she marries someone wealthy and established, this newfound status is only fleeting.
Rebecca, I would not put sabotage past anyone in the upper echelons of society - even Lily.
Lewis, I disagree that Lily is self-reliant right now. She is relying on Gus Trenor to invest money.
I agree that definitely money has had a benefit on Lily changing her social status for the better but i believe this status is not held secure for the future. I would hope that Lily would care less about the opinions of society and live the life she wants but she is too paranoid of what others think of her financially for this to ever occur. Because she cares she needs to marry someone wealthy soon if she wants acceptance into the social circle.
I think that she went out of the circle... Using what Benjy said, yes she has gotten some cash, but that makes her seem like she desires not to be single. Above that, she is dependent. She also gets the letters and decides to use it as a dagger against Dorset. I think that this implies that she is leaving the circle... She has no money and no rich husband and yet she wants to destroy Dorset for loving Seldon. Also, Gryce's being engages to someone else is basically the same thing as rejecting Lily. This means that she's being rejected by the social freak of the circle...
She most certainly has. She's losing her potential husbands to gossips, successful yet immature in her financial investments, and she is beginning to bore the people at Bellomont ("and rich people never get boring!"). She's basically gone from San Diego to Tijuana, if you can catch my drift. Since Seldon has one foot in and one foot out, he's more like Seattle and Vancouver (I like geography). Money has slightly saved her, but the deed is pretty much done, meaning Lily has nearly lost touch with her bourgeois roots. The only thing that will really revive her is a wealthy groom.
I think that her recent increase in money may be the beginning of a change in her status. I think that it can't completely change though until she gets married because I feel like in the society, that is only way to permanently secure one's position. I think because she isn't married, even with her increase of money, she is viewed as temporary and unofficial.
Yeah, I think we're seeing the beginning of the end for Lily. I mean there is the temporary source of money, but the "scandal" has put a blemish on her reputation. For Lily, it isn't just a loss of fortune that equals death; it is also the loss of social respectability and position in society. She can tell that her rank is falling and it scares her. Then there's the Selden incident, which maybe shows some of her frustration with the whole situation. At this point she doesn't really know where to turn.
Oh, and I also agree that marriage-- in this context and the time period being what it is- is the only thing that can save her now.
22 comments:
In the sense of money and material objects, I think yes, Lily's social status has changed. She has been able to buy gowns and jewelry and pay off her bills. However, people continue to gossip about her and she has not found a husband. Therefore, she has not changed her long-term social status. Soon enough, the money will dissipate and she will be back where she started.
I think she is actually being moved more towards the center of the circle, because of the recent gossip. She is becoming a center of attention in this world, and thus becoming more important. I think when people start to forget about you, you start to move out of the circle and into the "republic". Also, her new found money is allowing her to take part in the society and not just be a spectator on their world.
I think that being the center of scandal and gossip has definitely been beneficial for Lily's social status. She is getting more and more attention fro Gus Trenor and George Dorset as well as many other male admirers, which will only increase her likelihood of getting married. However, I think that the engagement of Gryce and Evie Van Osburgh was definitely an unexpected twist. I was really shocked that so soon into the start of the novel the possibility of a marriage between Lily & Percy was already eliminated? I wonder if Lily will do anything to jeopardize the engagement?
ooo becca i like that idea. itd make the plotline a little more interesting i think. yeah i agree that being given all this attention is contributing to pushing her into the center of the cirlce for the society to revolve around. also, of course, the increase in money [thanks to mr trenor] is enabling her to afford the lifestyle that her name perscribes.
at the same time though i still have hope for lily and seldon. its an unlikely couple for their society but like lily said why should percy marry evie if they both have money... meaning she thinks people should share the wealth. actually i think she just said that cause she was jealous, but still as long as she doesnt stupidly lose her money, she could bring seldon into her world and just have enough money to provide for them both. this is kind of unrealistic but im hoping it happens because lily even admits shes different with seldon and hes the only one who doesnt bore her.
Nice question CHUCK.
Lily is still part of the same social circle but she has moved closer to the tetherball side (from our diagram). The reason for the side switch is because she is now making her money in wall street and business like Rosedale and the new wealth does. The reason she is still in her original social circle with Trenor and the Dorsets is because she still acts as if she is a member of that society. For example, She still sort of resents Rosedale and she still goes to houses like Bellomont.
I believe that Lily's social position has changed, to a point where she is almost out of the circle. True that she had gotten Gus to give her money to pay off gambling debts and other things, but in the last or second to last chapter Gus shows how suspicious he is of her, which is quite a lot, at the opera house. I think she is being pushed into a situation where she is losing control of where her money comes from and how to spend that money. Also, at the end of the last chapter, Miss Stepney reveals a lot of what happened to Mrs. Peniston, and Miss Stepney is bound to keep spreading the information. Also, Lily had made a few enemie, such as Stepney, as well as Mrs. Dorset, so her stability in the social circle is now very questionable.
I think that though her economic situation has improved, her position in the social circle has not. The people in the circle seem to distrust her (Berthe Dorset) or get in her way (the Van Osburghs... just how many of them are there? They marry everyone.).
So, now she's got a couple of guys chasing her. One she dislikes. Another one is married. The best isn'tloaded enough. I believe that her getting married is essential to her social status.
I feel that from the point of view of another character in the social circle, Lily's status has changed and he has grown closer to the center of the circle. But in Lily's point of view, she has not really changed that much. This has nothing to do with the post, but it annoys me that Lily cannot truly see the difference between true happiness and the false happiness that comes from wealth, which, in this society, acts as a poor substitute for true happiness.
Good question, and I would say that depends what you mean by social status because in the eyes of her peers she is still lower-upper class however she has recently come into some money that allows her to pay off some debts and buy some things for herself. The people around her still view her as the same though, because she does take in a significant amount that would allow them to believe otherwise.
i do not believe lily's social status has changed because even though she is able to purchase more, she is still sort of viewed as an outsider. the fact that she is not married and does not appear to have a decent shot with gryce only furthers her social exclusion. unless she starts making multi millions from her investments, her social status will remain the same.
I would have to agree with Nikki. I think that because Lily has been gaining money, she has been getting closer to the circle of society in the short term. However, due to the fact that money and income can come and go so easily, I do not think this will stabilize her future place in society. Once she solidifies her place in society, possibly through marriage, we will be able to tell where Lily truly stands in society.
I agree with Justin, and I think that unless Lily marries someone wealthy, she will be viewed as an outsider. This is because right now she is self-reliant, unlike any of the other women, and in order to join the inside of the circle, she will have to combine her own wealth with that of someone like Percy.
I think that even though Lily is beginning to make money her social status among women is changing because of how she is getting the money. Lilys investments through Trenor are made possible by her allowing herself to become indebted to him with her company. I think that the other women are jealous of her because of how she is able to use her looks to get their husbands, and other men, to do what she wants. Among men her status is remaining relatively the same however among women, which matters more, I think that her status is diminishing.
I think that Lily is definitely closer to the center of the social circle, but not in a positive way. All this gossip about her will not end well and as Nikki pointed out, Lily still needs a husband. Lily's position in the circle will not last and unless she finds a husband soon and stops the rumors from spreading, things will definitely take a turn for the worse.
With the money she is receiving from Trenor, Lily has moved closer into the circle (or at the very least, stopped herself from moving further out). If she had stopped having a maid or playing bridge, for example, her status would certainly diminished even more. I don't think that Gus Trenor will be able to depended on, so unless she marries someone wealthy and established, this newfound status is only fleeting.
Rebecca, I would not put sabotage past anyone in the upper echelons of society - even Lily.
Lewis, I disagree that Lily is self-reliant right now. She is relying on Gus Trenor to invest money.
I agree that definitely money has had a benefit on Lily changing her social status for the better but i believe this status is not held secure for the future. I would hope that Lily would care less about the opinions of society and live the life she wants but she is too paranoid of what others think of her financially for this to ever occur. Because she cares she needs to marry someone wealthy soon if she wants acceptance into the social circle.
Sorry bout that, i made a bit of a mistake
I think that she went out of the circle... Using what Benjy said, yes she has gotten some cash, but that makes her seem like she desires not to be single. Above that, she is dependent. She also gets the letters and decides to use it as a dagger against Dorset. I think that this implies that she is leaving the circle... She has no money and no rich husband and yet she wants to destroy Dorset for loving Seldon. Also, Gryce's being engages to someone else is basically the same thing as rejecting Lily. This means that she's being rejected by the social freak of the circle...
She most certainly has. She's losing her potential husbands to gossips, successful yet immature in her financial investments, and she is beginning to bore the people at Bellomont ("and rich people never get boring!"). She's basically gone from San Diego to Tijuana, if you can catch my drift. Since Seldon has one foot in and one foot out, he's more like Seattle and Vancouver (I like geography). Money has slightly saved her, but the deed is pretty much done, meaning Lily has nearly lost touch with her bourgeois roots. The only thing that will really revive her is a wealthy groom.
I think that her recent increase in money may be the beginning of a change in her status. I think that it can't completely change though until she gets married because I feel like in the society, that is only way to permanently secure one's position. I think because she isn't married, even with her increase of money, she is viewed as temporary and unofficial.
Yeah, I think we're seeing the beginning of the end for Lily. I mean there is the temporary source of money, but the "scandal" has put a blemish on her reputation. For Lily, it isn't just a loss of fortune that equals death; it is also the loss of social respectability and position in society. She can tell that her rank is falling and it scares her. Then there's the Selden incident, which maybe shows some of her frustration with the whole situation. At this point she doesn't really know where to turn.
Oh, and I also agree that marriage-- in this context and the time period being what it is- is the only thing that can save her now.
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